Warriors Need to be Able to Heal!
Get ready this will be a long one...
Fabled T7 Bucklers for Warriors
Wow, where to start. This thread was doomed to be a cesspool of ignorance from conception. The original post was calling for fabled bucklers oriented towards tanks to be included in the game more often. This of course is because of the stamina AA path that most warriors choose that gives them the benefit of double attacking as long as they equip a 1hander + buckler instead of a tower shield. It may sound like a fair trade off on paper, but in reality the 3-5% avoidance lost by equipping a buckler is all but negligeable. By asking for "tank oriented" bucklers to be added in, basically what Kalidon is saying is make a buckler that is equivalent to a tower shield for tanking. This of course spurned a huge debate.
1. The stamina AA line for warriors is overpowered, period. Of all the classes that get a double attack option, warriors have to give up the least by far. As I mentioned, switching from a tower shield to a buckler is a minor inconvenience at best and not really a penalty at all. Rogues have to keep their secondary slot empty and brawlers need to go completely unarmed. Warriors? They just have to use a slightly smaller shield and still retain all their mitigation, so who really cares if you get hit 1 more time out of 20 swings for a highly mitigated amount?
2. Everyone already knew that this line was overpowered, they had learned to accept it. Calling for items to be put in game that enhance an already overpowered ability? Now that is a joke. It makes as much sense as someone seriously asking for summoners to do 2x more damage but get 1/2 as much aggro. Its just idiotic. Here is a tip for ALL classes out there: If you are the beneficiary of an overpowered ability, do NOT ask for upgrades, be happy with what you have. Asking for upgrades is only going to draw extra attention to your abilities and result in a high liklihood of them being nerfed.
So now of course you have the standard players posting about how this AA was already overpowered and now we're going to ride it since you were foolish enough to bring it up as needing to be upgraded vs the sheep who are members of the guild run by the OP, the berserkers (argueably the most overpowered class in game) who cant stand the thought of everything they do not being better than other players, and guardians whom I have already expressed my feelings on in a previous post. Yes there are one or 2 good people from the various "cliches" posting intelligent remarks here and there, but as a majority they fall into the afore mentioned categories. What I think most of the warriors are failing to realize is that the people saying it is overpowered are not asking for the dps to be nerfed even, they are simply saying the purely offensive AA path should have drawbacks in the form of tanking ability. Nobody should expect to be able to tank and simultaneously do top end dps. Thats just plain stupid.
Now before we get too far into the thread, let me just bring something up. DPS Tiers. Yes we have all heard of them and yes we all know that SOE regrets ever posting them. They were intended to be a rough guidelines, not a bread and butter, do or die ruleset that the playerbase turned them into. It was perfectly reasonable that at times classes would be up or down a tier for various reasons. All in all though, the layout was still a guideline for the balancing they hoped to achieve. So looking at the DPS tiers we cant at least form a reasonable estimate of what classes should be at least equal in dps to others.
T1 - Wizard, Warlock, Assassin, Ranger
T2 - Conjuror (using dps pet), Necromancer (using dps pet), Brigand, Swashbuckler
T3 - Conjuror (using tank pet), Necromancer (using tank pet), Troubadour, Dirge, Illusionist, Coercer, Bruiser, Monk
T4 - Berserker, Shadowknight, Paladin, Guardian
T5 - Fury, Warden, Defiler, Mystic, Inquisitor, Templar
These classes are supposedly listed from relative top to relative bottom within the tiers as well. Keep in mind this reflects the developers rough guildelines for where classes should be dps wise and nothing else. Using our brains it is easy to see that a warrior doing high end dps on encounters where they may shine could feasibly be doing dps equal to the t3 classes.
Now back to the thread.
The first defense from the warriors of the world came in the form of: Buckler reversal proc's a ton of damage so warriors can really only do decent dps when tanking. Calaglin quickly shot this theory down as he posted a zone wide parse from Lyceum (a zone with MANY multi mob encounters so the dmg would be higher than normal). This parse showed that buckler reversal accounted for a mere 3% of the total damage output of the warrior who was tanking. It is the 5th post from the bottom here.
So now we have some warriors who are absoultey upset and throw into a fit. My favorite quote appears from Comalv, a berserker in Xanadu on the Runnyeye server:
"i think that all players that say that STA line is overpowered need to a) learn to play their character better, b) get a life and quit whining."
Ok Comalv, Im saying the STA line is overpowered and your saying I need to learn to play my character better. Find me a conjuror whose out parsing me zone wide. Yeah, I havent seen one either. Oh and Ill be sure to get out of my mother's basement and get a job even though Im 10 years old right?
I will give credit though to Henladar Bloodheart for being a realist and saying:
"This is coming for a zerker who tanks alot of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]... rdy for it? STA LINE IS OVERPOWERED!"
Oh and lets not forget this one from AncientElster:
"I do about 700dps or so *without* a buckler in the MT group.
I guess that means guardians are overpowered then Phov?"
No, it just means you fucking suck AncientElster. Seriously your really bad if thats all you can do. Im sorry but you might want to re-roll and try and learn your class when you level up this time.
Now here is where things get sad. I like the guild Fable. I respect Fable, but this berseker of theirs, Bravesword, says some really stupid shit (more from him later, and dont feel bad Fable, we all have that one person that posts dumb comments):
"You noobs must be able to see the way SOE designed the classes: Scouts, mages, and fighters all have 1 subclass, that sticks out as low on dps, but high on utility"
Actually Bravesword, SOE designed this game so that ALL priests could heal, ALL fighters could tank, ALL mages and ALL scouts could dps. That is what this game and all of those classes were founded upon, that core ability. Believe it or not, enchanters, bards, rangers, and warlocks are all dps first and now your want to be able to be the MT for all content in game AND outperform these classes on their base roles? Get a clue. Look back at those dps tiers. You doing the same dps as bards and enchanters is ok, but not as the norm and you shouldnt be out parsing them regularily either, maybe only once in a great while if at all. Please at least have an idea of how SOE designed the classes before commenting on it in the future.
Now for those of you who have read this before, you probably know who Anariale is. He's is the paladin turned Guardian named Darton in the guild Ghosts of War on the Permafrost server. This guy is your classic little brother. He wants to hang out with the big boys but gets all flustered and acts like he doesnt care whenever they laugh at him. This is what I wrote about him in a public thread on the Dissolution boards the other day:
1. GoW guy makes post making outlandish and/or stupid claim
2. Real raiders from different servers point out how prior claim was laughable at best
3. GoW guy argues, making himself look even dumber some how
4. Real raiders write him off as retard and mock him and his guild relentlessly
5. GoW guy replies with "it works for us, so whatever /shrug
That being said, check out his quote in this thread!:
"Time to stop the Rumors guys...
1) Guardians with bucklers do NOT do Tier 1 damage.
2) 30% or more of a MT's DPS comes from reactive damage"
Um, didnt we just point out how the biggest "reactive damage" was a mere 3% of the warriors dps? Yes we did. Learn to read you idiot. Oh and how about how they don't do t1 damage. Im sorry, if the MT of a raid can do a zone wide parse of 1500 wich is right there with all the top dps classes, they are doing t1 damage. Its not hard to open your eyes and read numbers. God I knew this retard would post something stupid in this thread, I just knew it.
While we are on stupid posts, lets go back to Bravesword:
"You say it is ok that an enchanter can deal 950 dps, but it is waaaay too much for a warrior. Eh, can you tell me the logic behind this? Enchanters are much more like crusaders, than warriors. Warriors take damage and deal damage. That is what they are build for. Enchanters are supporters like paladins. If a paladin could ever come close to a warrior in dealing dps and taking just as little damage as a warrior, who would play a warrior? NOONE!"
Hey, do you know why nobody should be playing crusaders? Its because warriors deal more dps and tank better! Im not even going to expand on the sheer stupidity behind posting that enchanters are more like crusaders than warriors are. I mean, good lord. Oh and again, Warriors were never about dealing damage, take damage yes, deal damage no. Dealing damage is for the dps classes, the scouts and mages, wich is, GASP, what an enchanter is.
And then there is this guy named Krontak who is a swashbuckler in the guild Rapture on Blackburrow. For some reason he's just not smart. Ive seen a few dumb posts from him before, but his hangup in this thread revolves around this, wich he repeatedly brings up:
"I saw the post disso had on the zonewide(or what we were lead to believe was zonewide, including even single target encounters)."
Yes, we found some invicible mob that could take unlimited damage and racked up huge numbers against him. Or we took our 2 best parses and added 4 zero's to the end of it. Oh and then we deleted out every 3rd fight. Seriously, stop and think for 5 seconds before posting. Anyone with a brain who has done these zones can tell that is a true zone wide parse. What good would making up data do? What possible reason would we have for that? If it had to be made up to show that something is overpowered, that would mean it actually isnt overpowered. You do realize we have 2 warriors in guild who both use the STA line right? Why on earth would we want to get them nerfed/fixed if the ability wasnt over powered? Its not hard to use your brain. Kids start doing it before they learn to walk, try it some time Krontak.
So at this point Dissolution is getting ready to raid lyceum since our lockout has expired. This is the one zone we use our berserker as a MT because of their superior AE aggro control. The MT group is set up as normal and as the fairly typical group used by high end raid guilds. Our guardian was our off tank should shit hit the fan or something. We pull fast so quite often we find ourselves with multiple groups of mobs and he is required to tank. Also the guardian is going to be tanking Vilucidae at the end of the zone. This shows the guardian's group is more than capable of tank ready, not being doctored up much at all. He has healers, he has buffs, he has support, its a solid group. We do our usual parsing, at the end of the zone, the bersker comes out with 1535 dps. The guardian comes out with 1230. Can anyone honestly say that 1535 dps isnt top end for an entire zone? That is absolutely ridiculous to see the MT of the raid get that high. What is even more ridiculous is that the best tanking class in the game in a still very reasonable tank group put up a 1230 for the zone. Perhaps I should mention we did the zone with 20 people so these numbers could have been higher. We were missing our inquisitor, wizard and both assassins (and our hit by a truck swashbuckler). Do you realize how fast shit would have died with those classes? I dont have the exact raid parse infront of me, but if I recall correctly I was atop the zone wide dps list with the necromancer and berserker tied for second/third. I know people want to use the arguement that well you guys as a raid do more dps blah blah blah. Yeah maybe we do but we were missing 4 big time dps characters so our raid dps that night was much more what you would expect from a regular guild. That should be evident by the fact that 1500 raid wide dps was in our top 3 (I cant help it that Im uber and even though I died 4x I can still do 1800 zone wide with no troub in group:))
But do any of these facts matter? No of course not because as I have said, 90% of the MT's out there are just plain stupid. You have people trying to discredit the guardian that wasnt tanking but still in a group allowing him to tank if need be. They post just ignorant crap like our friend Bravesword:
"So to me it looks like a guardian, who is not MT has a very hard time keeping up with the rest of the fighters"
What part of the 1200 dps not tanking was so hard for you to see? Thats good dps period. Many guilds are thrilled with that zone wide from dps classes. This is a fucking guardian who isnt tanking. If he was tanking his dps would have been higher and he would have had a better group!
Or how about AncientElster again:
"Clearly you set your raid up to enhance your fighters DPS"
Didnt I just say how he was set up for tanking and not dps? As previously discussed in that thread a proper tank group does have some dps benefits associated with it. Shit, all 4 of our groups are set up for dps by many guilds standards.
And then for fun lets go back to Bravesword with his absolute dumbest comment yet:
"You claim, that a warriors sta AA line is way overpowered. Ok. Show me one parse, where a guardian, who is not MT and has the Sta AAs, parse more than 800. My guess is, that it is close to impossible."
Seriously, how did you miss the huge fucking parse breakdown of the guardian who didnt tank doing 1200+ zone wide dps? close to impossible? Try all that and 50% more. Wow, just wow. People are so blind its scary sometimes. Scafloc, this guy is your leader? Please tell me he is hungover today or something. Unfortunately he wasnt done posting:
"Oh, and Pinski, why don't we nerf the illusionists as well. I see no comment from you on the zonewide parse, where our illusionist did 1200dps. Enchanters must be nerfed..."
Did he forget that illusionist are mages and are supposed to do dps? Did he forget the part where guardians are supposed to be the ultimate defensive tank? How can you forget such core mechanics? Its absolutely mindblowing. Your able to tank the hardest mob that has been killed (Chel'drak) and do good dps while using a buckler. How can anyone not see how wrong this is? The buckler line is supposed to lower your defensive capabilities but enhance your offensive ones. It is for the warriors who are not tanking in a raid. It was never intended to be used while tanking and therefore it needs a much bigger drawback than it currently has, something like the brawler and rogue double attack aa's have.
Now unfortunately I have to quote Crabbok from EL over on the Bazaar here. He actually was posting pretty well this whole time but this comment was fairly bad:
"thats right where warriors should be on parse...about 5th or 6th"
So of Assassins, Brigands, Conjurors, Necromancers, Rangers, Swashbucklers, Warlocks, and Wizards, wich ones should the warriors be out dps'ing and why exactly? His statement was clearly not thought out at all.
So now Krontak steps back in:
"Those parses above, with the charts...are they from only 2 encounters merged together?"
Yes, we did millions of damage on 2 encounters. I honestly think this guy is just dense and unobservant. He's one of those people that walk around completely unaware of the world around them at all times.
Anyways, thats my rant on this thread. I cant post on the SOE boards and I was astonished at the level of garbage I was seeing there. I should make note that Scafloc was doing his best to run damage control on Bravesword at times so hats off to him. And to see what I found as the highlight of this thread, take a look at page 4 when Phov from Vagabonds on the Unrest server told Kalidon exactly how useless his SK comment was in the whole spectrum of the disucssion. Also, Koenig's line of comments leading up to Guantlet was good.
Fabled T7 Bucklers for Warriors
Wow, where to start. This thread was doomed to be a cesspool of ignorance from conception. The original post was calling for fabled bucklers oriented towards tanks to be included in the game more often. This of course is because of the stamina AA path that most warriors choose that gives them the benefit of double attacking as long as they equip a 1hander + buckler instead of a tower shield. It may sound like a fair trade off on paper, but in reality the 3-5% avoidance lost by equipping a buckler is all but negligeable. By asking for "tank oriented" bucklers to be added in, basically what Kalidon is saying is make a buckler that is equivalent to a tower shield for tanking. This of course spurned a huge debate.
1. The stamina AA line for warriors is overpowered, period. Of all the classes that get a double attack option, warriors have to give up the least by far. As I mentioned, switching from a tower shield to a buckler is a minor inconvenience at best and not really a penalty at all. Rogues have to keep their secondary slot empty and brawlers need to go completely unarmed. Warriors? They just have to use a slightly smaller shield and still retain all their mitigation, so who really cares if you get hit 1 more time out of 20 swings for a highly mitigated amount?
2. Everyone already knew that this line was overpowered, they had learned to accept it. Calling for items to be put in game that enhance an already overpowered ability? Now that is a joke. It makes as much sense as someone seriously asking for summoners to do 2x more damage but get 1/2 as much aggro. Its just idiotic. Here is a tip for ALL classes out there: If you are the beneficiary of an overpowered ability, do NOT ask for upgrades, be happy with what you have. Asking for upgrades is only going to draw extra attention to your abilities and result in a high liklihood of them being nerfed.
So now of course you have the standard players posting about how this AA was already overpowered and now we're going to ride it since you were foolish enough to bring it up as needing to be upgraded vs the sheep who are members of the guild run by the OP, the berserkers (argueably the most overpowered class in game) who cant stand the thought of everything they do not being better than other players, and guardians whom I have already expressed my feelings on in a previous post. Yes there are one or 2 good people from the various "cliches" posting intelligent remarks here and there, but as a majority they fall into the afore mentioned categories. What I think most of the warriors are failing to realize is that the people saying it is overpowered are not asking for the dps to be nerfed even, they are simply saying the purely offensive AA path should have drawbacks in the form of tanking ability. Nobody should expect to be able to tank and simultaneously do top end dps. Thats just plain stupid.
Now before we get too far into the thread, let me just bring something up. DPS Tiers. Yes we have all heard of them and yes we all know that SOE regrets ever posting them. They were intended to be a rough guidelines, not a bread and butter, do or die ruleset that the playerbase turned them into. It was perfectly reasonable that at times classes would be up or down a tier for various reasons. All in all though, the layout was still a guideline for the balancing they hoped to achieve. So looking at the DPS tiers we cant at least form a reasonable estimate of what classes should be at least equal in dps to others.
T1 - Wizard, Warlock, Assassin, Ranger
T2 - Conjuror (using dps pet), Necromancer (using dps pet), Brigand, Swashbuckler
T3 - Conjuror (using tank pet), Necromancer (using tank pet), Troubadour, Dirge, Illusionist, Coercer, Bruiser, Monk
T4 - Berserker, Shadowknight, Paladin, Guardian
T5 - Fury, Warden, Defiler, Mystic, Inquisitor, Templar
These classes are supposedly listed from relative top to relative bottom within the tiers as well. Keep in mind this reflects the developers rough guildelines for where classes should be dps wise and nothing else. Using our brains it is easy to see that a warrior doing high end dps on encounters where they may shine could feasibly be doing dps equal to the t3 classes.
Now back to the thread.
The first defense from the warriors of the world came in the form of: Buckler reversal proc's a ton of damage so warriors can really only do decent dps when tanking. Calaglin quickly shot this theory down as he posted a zone wide parse from Lyceum (a zone with MANY multi mob encounters so the dmg would be higher than normal). This parse showed that buckler reversal accounted for a mere 3% of the total damage output of the warrior who was tanking. It is the 5th post from the bottom here.
So now we have some warriors who are absoultey upset and throw into a fit. My favorite quote appears from Comalv, a berserker in Xanadu on the Runnyeye server:
"i think that all players that say that STA line is overpowered need to a) learn to play their character better, b) get a life and quit whining."
Ok Comalv, Im saying the STA line is overpowered and your saying I need to learn to play my character better. Find me a conjuror whose out parsing me zone wide. Yeah, I havent seen one either. Oh and Ill be sure to get out of my mother's basement and get a job even though Im 10 years old right?
I will give credit though to Henladar Bloodheart for being a realist and saying:
"This is coming for a zerker who tanks alot of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]... rdy for it? STA LINE IS OVERPOWERED!"
Oh and lets not forget this one from AncientElster:
"I do about 700dps or so *without* a buckler in the MT group.
I guess that means guardians are overpowered then Phov?"
No, it just means you fucking suck AncientElster. Seriously your really bad if thats all you can do. Im sorry but you might want to re-roll and try and learn your class when you level up this time.
Now here is where things get sad. I like the guild Fable. I respect Fable, but this berseker of theirs, Bravesword, says some really stupid shit (more from him later, and dont feel bad Fable, we all have that one person that posts dumb comments):
"You noobs must be able to see the way SOE designed the classes: Scouts, mages, and fighters all have 1 subclass, that sticks out as low on dps, but high on utility"
Actually Bravesword, SOE designed this game so that ALL priests could heal, ALL fighters could tank, ALL mages and ALL scouts could dps. That is what this game and all of those classes were founded upon, that core ability. Believe it or not, enchanters, bards, rangers, and warlocks are all dps first and now your want to be able to be the MT for all content in game AND outperform these classes on their base roles? Get a clue. Look back at those dps tiers. You doing the same dps as bards and enchanters is ok, but not as the norm and you shouldnt be out parsing them regularily either, maybe only once in a great while if at all. Please at least have an idea of how SOE designed the classes before commenting on it in the future.
Now for those of you who have read this before, you probably know who Anariale is. He's is the paladin turned Guardian named Darton in the guild Ghosts of War on the Permafrost server. This guy is your classic little brother. He wants to hang out with the big boys but gets all flustered and acts like he doesnt care whenever they laugh at him. This is what I wrote about him in a public thread on the Dissolution boards the other day:
1. GoW guy makes post making outlandish and/or stupid claim
2. Real raiders from different servers point out how prior claim was laughable at best
3. GoW guy argues, making himself look even dumber some how
4. Real raiders write him off as retard and mock him and his guild relentlessly
5. GoW guy replies with "it works for us, so whatever /shrug
That being said, check out his quote in this thread!:
"Time to stop the Rumors guys...
1) Guardians with bucklers do NOT do Tier 1 damage.
2) 30% or more of a MT's DPS comes from reactive damage"
Um, didnt we just point out how the biggest "reactive damage" was a mere 3% of the warriors dps? Yes we did. Learn to read you idiot. Oh and how about how they don't do t1 damage. Im sorry, if the MT of a raid can do a zone wide parse of 1500 wich is right there with all the top dps classes, they are doing t1 damage. Its not hard to open your eyes and read numbers. God I knew this retard would post something stupid in this thread, I just knew it.
While we are on stupid posts, lets go back to Bravesword:
"You say it is ok that an enchanter can deal 950 dps, but it is waaaay too much for a warrior. Eh, can you tell me the logic behind this? Enchanters are much more like crusaders, than warriors. Warriors take damage and deal damage. That is what they are build for. Enchanters are supporters like paladins. If a paladin could ever come close to a warrior in dealing dps and taking just as little damage as a warrior, who would play a warrior? NOONE!"
Hey, do you know why nobody should be playing crusaders? Its because warriors deal more dps and tank better! Im not even going to expand on the sheer stupidity behind posting that enchanters are more like crusaders than warriors are. I mean, good lord. Oh and again, Warriors were never about dealing damage, take damage yes, deal damage no. Dealing damage is for the dps classes, the scouts and mages, wich is, GASP, what an enchanter is.
And then there is this guy named Krontak who is a swashbuckler in the guild Rapture on Blackburrow. For some reason he's just not smart. Ive seen a few dumb posts from him before, but his hangup in this thread revolves around this, wich he repeatedly brings up:
"I saw the post disso had on the zonewide(or what we were lead to believe was zonewide, including even single target encounters)."
Yes, we found some invicible mob that could take unlimited damage and racked up huge numbers against him. Or we took our 2 best parses and added 4 zero's to the end of it. Oh and then we deleted out every 3rd fight. Seriously, stop and think for 5 seconds before posting. Anyone with a brain who has done these zones can tell that is a true zone wide parse. What good would making up data do? What possible reason would we have for that? If it had to be made up to show that something is overpowered, that would mean it actually isnt overpowered. You do realize we have 2 warriors in guild who both use the STA line right? Why on earth would we want to get them nerfed/fixed if the ability wasnt over powered? Its not hard to use your brain. Kids start doing it before they learn to walk, try it some time Krontak.
So at this point Dissolution is getting ready to raid lyceum since our lockout has expired. This is the one zone we use our berserker as a MT because of their superior AE aggro control. The MT group is set up as normal and as the fairly typical group used by high end raid guilds. Our guardian was our off tank should shit hit the fan or something. We pull fast so quite often we find ourselves with multiple groups of mobs and he is required to tank. Also the guardian is going to be tanking Vilucidae at the end of the zone. This shows the guardian's group is more than capable of tank ready, not being doctored up much at all. He has healers, he has buffs, he has support, its a solid group. We do our usual parsing, at the end of the zone, the bersker comes out with 1535 dps. The guardian comes out with 1230. Can anyone honestly say that 1535 dps isnt top end for an entire zone? That is absolutely ridiculous to see the MT of the raid get that high. What is even more ridiculous is that the best tanking class in the game in a still very reasonable tank group put up a 1230 for the zone. Perhaps I should mention we did the zone with 20 people so these numbers could have been higher. We were missing our inquisitor, wizard and both assassins (and our hit by a truck swashbuckler). Do you realize how fast shit would have died with those classes? I dont have the exact raid parse infront of me, but if I recall correctly I was atop the zone wide dps list with the necromancer and berserker tied for second/third. I know people want to use the arguement that well you guys as a raid do more dps blah blah blah. Yeah maybe we do but we were missing 4 big time dps characters so our raid dps that night was much more what you would expect from a regular guild. That should be evident by the fact that 1500 raid wide dps was in our top 3 (I cant help it that Im uber and even though I died 4x I can still do 1800 zone wide with no troub in group:))
But do any of these facts matter? No of course not because as I have said, 90% of the MT's out there are just plain stupid. You have people trying to discredit the guardian that wasnt tanking but still in a group allowing him to tank if need be. They post just ignorant crap like our friend Bravesword:
"So to me it looks like a guardian, who is not MT has a very hard time keeping up with the rest of the fighters"
What part of the 1200 dps not tanking was so hard for you to see? Thats good dps period. Many guilds are thrilled with that zone wide from dps classes. This is a fucking guardian who isnt tanking. If he was tanking his dps would have been higher and he would have had a better group!
Or how about AncientElster again:
"Clearly you set your raid up to enhance your fighters DPS"
Didnt I just say how he was set up for tanking and not dps? As previously discussed in that thread a proper tank group does have some dps benefits associated with it. Shit, all 4 of our groups are set up for dps by many guilds standards.
And then for fun lets go back to Bravesword with his absolute dumbest comment yet:
"You claim, that a warriors sta AA line is way overpowered. Ok. Show me one parse, where a guardian, who is not MT and has the Sta AAs, parse more than 800. My guess is, that it is close to impossible."
Seriously, how did you miss the huge fucking parse breakdown of the guardian who didnt tank doing 1200+ zone wide dps? close to impossible? Try all that and 50% more. Wow, just wow. People are so blind its scary sometimes. Scafloc, this guy is your leader? Please tell me he is hungover today or something. Unfortunately he wasnt done posting:
"Oh, and Pinski, why don't we nerf the illusionists as well. I see no comment from you on the zonewide parse, where our illusionist did 1200dps. Enchanters must be nerfed..."
Did he forget that illusionist are mages and are supposed to do dps? Did he forget the part where guardians are supposed to be the ultimate defensive tank? How can you forget such core mechanics? Its absolutely mindblowing. Your able to tank the hardest mob that has been killed (Chel'drak) and do good dps while using a buckler. How can anyone not see how wrong this is? The buckler line is supposed to lower your defensive capabilities but enhance your offensive ones. It is for the warriors who are not tanking in a raid. It was never intended to be used while tanking and therefore it needs a much bigger drawback than it currently has, something like the brawler and rogue double attack aa's have.
Now unfortunately I have to quote Crabbok from EL over on the Bazaar here. He actually was posting pretty well this whole time but this comment was fairly bad:
"thats right where warriors should be on parse...about 5th or 6th"
So of Assassins, Brigands, Conjurors, Necromancers, Rangers, Swashbucklers, Warlocks, and Wizards, wich ones should the warriors be out dps'ing and why exactly? His statement was clearly not thought out at all.
So now Krontak steps back in:
"Those parses above, with the charts...are they from only 2 encounters merged together?"
Yes, we did millions of damage on 2 encounters. I honestly think this guy is just dense and unobservant. He's one of those people that walk around completely unaware of the world around them at all times.
Anyways, thats my rant on this thread. I cant post on the SOE boards and I was astonished at the level of garbage I was seeing there. I should make note that Scafloc was doing his best to run damage control on Bravesword at times so hats off to him. And to see what I found as the highlight of this thread, take a look at page 4 when Phov from Vagabonds on the Unrest server told Kalidon exactly how useless his SK comment was in the whole spectrum of the disucssion. Also, Koenig's line of comments leading up to Guantlet was good.
posted by Ishbu at 11:15 AM
20 Comments:
So you've finally run out of semi-incognito Station accounts? I must admit I will miss snooping them out. It must be killing you to be relegated to shouting from this roadside soapbox. With any luck, the transition to new forums will have some amnesty effect on suspended accounts, so we can watch you get yourself banned all over again.
Anyway, there are some flaws in the analysis being perpetuated here and in that tedious forum post.
Let's look again at the Kobal & Morphling Lyceum parse.
Casual (lazy) analysis says, "Hey, that Berserker is doing 1534 DPS." But he's not. Nihilistics is not his damage. Neither is Blade Chime, Thorns, Flameshield, Deadly Invective, and a few other things towards the bottom of the list. Damage from such buffs should be attributed to their casters. Kobal is actually around 1320 DPS, and Morphling under 1100.
Just because the parser isn't equipped to automatically make that attribution doesn't make it appropriate to perpetuate half-truths. Judging from the URL of that .jpg, someone in Cincinnati's physics department needs to improve his experimental analysis.
There has also been some misunderstanding about how much of the reported DPS is a result of that character being the tank. It's not 30%, but it's certainly not 3%. Nihilistics, Provoking Counterattack, Thorns, Flameshield, Counterattack, and Buckler Reversal are all defensive proc damage. There is also some unmeasurable portion of the slash damage resulting from ripostes. Defensive damage in Kobal's case accounts for an absolute minimum of 16% of his supposed DPS, with a probable ceiling around 20%. I say supposed because, again, much of this damage should be attributed elsewhere. You claim that Morphling's 1230 (or 1100) DPS is from a non-tank role, but that's clearly another half-truth.
Now, that said, is Gladiator's Finesse overpowered? Somewhat, potentially, but certainly not to the degree you and Calagin claim. Since it's impossible for you to determine how much of Kobal's 2.1 million slashing damage in this instance is generated from double attack (thanks to Open Wounds and riposte), it's irresponsible to make claims about the relative fairness of that value. It is also irresponsible to make comparisons between various classes without properly attributing proc buff damage.
Luckily, the continued zealotry of your partners in crime virtually ensures that nothing will come of this proselytizing. You've (collectively) fostered an environment where designers must be reluctant to placate you by following any of your suggestions. But please don't stop, it's too amusing.
No you cant find out exactly how much damage the sta line is giving the warriors, but thats not the point. Its not even the dps levels. Its the dps they are able to achieve while retaining their tankability.
The morphling parse was only there to show everyone who was saying that warriors can only do dps when they tank because of this aa so its for tanking. Obviously we proved that isnt the case.
This line screams less tanking ability, more dps. Its for those warriors on a raid that dont get to tank but since mechanics are the way they are it does little to nothing to hinder the tanks ability to tank, therefore the line needs to be changed because its overpowered. There is no real drawback to it.
Oh and I still have forum accounts, but Im just keeping them a bit more tame.
Interesting post, Ishbu. I agree with most things you said and having a 70 Berserker myself I agree the STA AA line is overpowered as are Warriors in general. It's not the dps that's overpowered as such, but rather the line doesn't appear to have any real cons to counter the obvious pro's. I think the Warrior should incure increased avoidance loss as a result of using a buckler.
One thing I don't agree with, however, is your stance on Enchanters. I also have a 70 Dirge and whilst I can knock out ~700 dps with MT buffs (meaning very little dps enhancements), I don't think I'm underpowered. By your reckoning, a Bard should be doing way more dps since they are scouts, and scouts are dps.
I don't know. I kind of put Bards and Chanters in their own little cubby-hole, away from their archetypes. However, I don't think an Illusionist's dps should be nerfed. People need to step back and remember Disso's members are as good as it gets. Just because Calagin can get that much dps, doesn't mean it's a regular occurence for Chanters.
Hmm I dont think I explained my stance there all that well.
Right now bards and enchanters are capable of doing fairly reasonable dps. 1000-1200 zone wide is good, especially considering the utility they bring. What I would like to see is the 1000-1200 zone wide parses being top end for warriors using the STA line, but then also making it so warriors cant tank like god's simultaneously. If the warrior wanted to temporarily equip a buckler and go dps thats fine, but they shouldnt expect to tank too. It would be a trade off similar to the way summoners work, I can go tank pet/defensive but I lose a lot of dps that way or i can go dps pet/offensive but have no tanking ability.
Aye, even in the most simplistic games you always get the three classes of:
1. High damage, weak defense.
2. Medium damage, medium defense.
3. Low damage, high defense.
Why SOE decided to break this mold and go with super powered Warriors, I don't know. Something tells me they're trying to be way more complicated than needs be and failing the most basic gaming principles in the process.
Good writeup - when Itoock told me about the LoA parses, I kinda knew that post was going to explode into something more then what it was....lol
-- Phov
I am just too lazy to create an account...
you can click the other button instead of the anonymous one and just put in any name you want without an account! :)
Sweet, now I know....and knowing is half the battle - GO JOE!
Saying that Morphling or Kobal's damage "doesn't count" because of procs is 1000 kinds of fucking retarded.
Any dps class in Morphling's position in that group would benefit from the same buffs, so its the same goddamn difference.
A paladin as MT would have the same "reactive damage chance" as the berserker did, but you don't see them parsing T1 dps zonewide.
If you can simulataneously parse top 5 while tanking an orange x4 mob you are overpowered.
If you don't think so, you're inbred.
Amused Najenan:
I didn't know just because I work someplace, I'm obviously lumped in with people. Btw why would you say someone, and not just come out and say exactly who you're talking about, rather than being some anonymous retard. I'm glad this isn't the eq2boards, since I can bash you without fear of being banned. You're a moron. Please, say who you are, and btw I dunno, ~pinskie and Pinski, doesn't that seem like the same person, does to me. Thanks for being moron boy.
You are part of group A and group B. Thanks for proving your stupidity.
I see the marionettes have arrived! How lucky.
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"I didn't know just because I work someplace, I'm obviously lumped in with people." -pinski
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I considered it a reasonable inference that someone with an account within the physics.uc.edu domain would be either a student or faculty in the department. If you're actually the janitor, then I apologize for overestimating you.
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"Btw why would you say someone, and not just come out and say exactly who you're talking about" -pinski
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I'm not sure how this is a point of confusion. Obviously I was talking about you. Who else could it have been? You hosted the picture, you posted it, and then you propped it up as some sort of proof of your claim.
In case it's not clear, I'm not even arguing for or against the original claim itself. It's subjective, anyway, not something that can be proven. My criticism is against the methods and analysis being used to support it. You can't toss up a couple of best-case ACT screenshots and expect them to stand up to intelligent scrutiny.
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and combat parses.
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"Please, say who you are" -pinski
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What would that earn, your ire or your respect? Neither is worth shit.
Moving on...
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"Saying that Morphling or Kobal's damage "doesn't count" because of procs is 1000 kinds of fucking retarded." -gaige
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Most of it does count, of course, but the portion that came from procs simply doesn't belong to them. It belongs to the warlock, the defiler, the dirge, and so on. Just because you'd rather blindly echo the numbers that ACT spits out doesn't make them honest, just convenient.
Speaking of honesty...
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"I cant post on the SOE boards" -ishbu
"Oh and I still have forum accounts, but Im just keeping them a bit more tame." -ishbu again
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How can anyone possibly take you seriously?
It's easy to see who doesn't take you guys seriously, since the CoP is still outstanding, relic still drops from Lab trash, and Elleffgee still can't swing his Wurmslayer. But at least Death Coordination is on death row, so congrats for that.
If I were a warrior watching this unfold, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. It's just as Gaige's forum title suggests: Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
k.
I can't believe i actually read that preechy, arrogant, "i'm more uber than you" rant in it's entirety. Just when i was about to click X in disgust, some comment would appear that astounded me and took your self-loving to a new level i'd never though possible.
The way you talk, anyone reading this would think you're He-Man, Master of the Universe. You claim to know what the developers are thinking and also believe that your own (unobjective) opinion is law!
Know what the word humility means? I doubt it very much judging by what is written here, you should look it up.
It's all well and good to be part of (quoted from the dissolution web site) "the top raiding guild on the Nektulos Server and one of the top World Wide" and "own the shit out of any mob that requires more than one group", but i really don't believe it justifies the attitude yourself and many of the other so-called "uber" players have.
I think you need a smack in the head so you can wake up from your "happy place" and step back into reality. Either that or you need to re-roll your life and learn how to play a human-being.
If you actually read it I dont see how this has anything to do with me being more uber than anyone else. In fact it has absoultely nothing to do with me or my guild being better than any one else and their guild. It is completely about a topic saying that an AA line for warriors is overpowered. Here's a newsflash, we have warriors in our guild who use it to!
But then again, I wouldnt expect much of a clue from someone who said that us "uber" players need to "re-roll life and learn how to play a human-being".
As for that Najenan guy, do you really think this entire game is balanced around Dissolution? That would be quite an absurd thought.
Developers know that the CoP was a mistake, they know that relic dropping off 1 groupable trash mobs with little to no lockout was a mistake. They are going to account for these in EoF. It was far too late to do anything about them in KoS and anyone with a small amount of business sense can easily see why.
By the time those mistakes were realized for what they were, to nerf them would have done nothing but to completely piss off a mountain of casual players and spurn the greatest casual vs hardcore arguement the boards have ever seen, one that would simply never die and be contnually brought back up. When we post saying they should be nerfed or how it was wrong, it is really saying, dont make this fucking mistake again, look how bad it was. The funny thing is the developers saw and understood it, evidentally you didnt.
You would have to be completely assinine to think the designers of the game dont take us seriously. Many of the developers are former eq1 players from casual to hardcore and they know full well the type of first hand experience we get with their game. The bottom line is they know we spend more hours in game going through and trying to tear through all the content they can churn out. They know if there are bugs that people like us are most likely to stumble across them. Its part of the reason you see us tell people who whine about old bugs to stfu. Do they not realize we encountered that months ago and instead of it being a known issue we have to go out of our way to make it known to the people who can eventually do something about it?
And know the procs placed on a class are their dps, not the person who placed it on them. Otherwise your saying that all the extra dps someone gets from haste is actually an illusionists dps if they have the haste buff on them and other stupid shit like that. No, it is the player with the proc/buffs job to figure out where to put the proc in their group/raid that will yield the biggest benefits. Certain classes will make use of buffs/procs better than others, part of knowing how to make use of the utility of your class is enhancing THEIR dps with your abilities.
PS - Flame away, I dont even have this set up for mod access to myself because I doubt I would ever moderate anything unless people started posting porn or something equally stupid.
You missed entirely the point of what I was saying, wanker. My issue is not with what you said, it's with how you said it.
If this long-winded diatribe were soley about the Warrior AA's as you claim, why the need to mud-sling and personally flame individual people? I honestly can't see how making comment about individual people contributes in anyway to the subject of warrior aa's.
From what's written here, one can only come to the conclusion that only by making others look bad, can you look good.
It would appear that humility still isn't a member of your vocabulary. I really believe that you have some good points, however people would be a hell of alot more receptive of your opinions if they weren't of such an arrogant flavour.
Ill show some humility in my posts when they require a minimum intelligence to even post in the first place. Stupid posts deserve to be ridiculed.
Its is of my opinion that you agree with us or you're wrong.
Great job defending buckler line retards, but if your tanks are only getting 1400 dps with it(Guardians too!), then they suck and you are none-the-wiser.
I have seen people get over 3k dps with this line, without planar axe, while tanking.
The buckler line is one of a myriad of problems that need to be tweaked/corrected with regards to damage, I guess the only reason there is such a current stink is because guardians have the biggest ego and think they have the most to lose. If we saw this much attention from warlocks who still suck total ass in all regards, maybe they'd be closer to being fixed.
I think you missed the part where the 1400dps was zone wide in a non stop pulling enviroment. Sure 3k is doable on some encounters but not for a whole zone.
But yeah, fuck tanks, help warlocks. Ill get behind that one.
A bit off topic but druid dps was suposed to be above the other priests (ie tier 4) since thats where their utility is. It's probably not true anymore though unfortunately.
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